Puscifer’s Maynard James Keenan and Carina Round have spoken to NME about how darker, heavier new album ‘Normal Isn’t’ continues to hold a mirror up to a challenging world, while finding hope within that.
The experimental rockers’ fifth album is the long-awaited follow-up to 2020’s ‘Existential Reckoning’, which saw them first lean into synths and capture a more ambient feel. This time around, the band have come out all guns blazing — making nods to their early punk and goth inspirations.
It also sees Keenan (also of Tool and A Perfect Circle) experiment with a new style of songwriting, tackling digital audio workstation Logic for the first time and pushing himself to avoid playing it safe.
“With any music that we’re doing, there’s an element of trying to challenge yourself and break your own mould,” he told NME. “I think it helps as an artist to, instead of just settling into a process, find a way to throw yourself back to the beginning and start over.”
“Historically, it has always been for me to separate projects, because it’s very important for me to allow the music to start from other individuals, and then I respond to it, rather than the other way around. It means it maintains a unique nature,” he added. “This time, though, I just begged Mat [Mitchell] to help me crack the code of Logic so that I could get some stuff down, and it worked.”
Check out our full interview below, where the band tell us about fighting the urge to become “arrogant” in songwriting, striking the perfect balance of comedy and seriousness, touring with Primus, Alex Honnold going viral for his Tool-dominated playlist, ICE and the political temperature in the US, and whether we could ever see a movement like the ’77 punk explosion in 2026.
NME: Hi Maynard and Carina. Each song on ‘Normal Isn’t’ feels like it has its own universe, but the album as a whole is strongly underpinned by the chaos that we’re seeing on planet Earth. What exactly did you mean when you said it was a case of “observing and reporting”?
Maynard James Keenan: “That’s what we’re all doing – reporting things through our lens. Whatever your history is, whatever you’ve been indoctrinated with, you’re going to report it through your lens. As artists, your job is to be the witness and to be chronicling, in a way. Also, if you’ve chosen the arts, there’s probably something in you that is lacking, and you’re trying to fix or work through it.”
Do you see it as a way of building a bond with the people listening, or is it about you just making sense of things that are happening around you?
Keenan: “As an only child, it’s all about you. As much as you’d love to think that you’re here to serve, you’re not. We’re all working through weird shit, and as an only child, you’re in your own echo chamber. However, at the end of the day, it has to resonate with you first because you are a human being. You are having similar experiences to the rest of humanity, so if it resonates with you, it will resonate with other people too.
“What ends up being the collateral benefit is when you find out from somebody else that it actually helped them work through a thing that they couldn’t quite articulate.”
Carina Round: “Yeah, you’re essentially just finding your spot in this alien place and working out how you fit into it all, but when you do fit into it, you can communicate with all these other people who are trying to figure out how they fit into it too.”
It feels fitting to drop a cover of Low’s ‘Congregation’, especially seeing as they’re a band from Minnesota and given everything going on there right now…
Keenan: “Since Mimi Parker [Low singer] passed away, I would definitely have my nights where I was going down the rabbit hole of being a depressed goth kid and maybe having a few glasses of wine. Then Carina would get this 11pm playlist of me emoting. So when [these feelings] came up, they were definitely reflective of what is going on [at the minute], because the band are from Minnesota, just north of Minneapolis. I went down the rabbit hole because of all that, and I was throwing these songs out there, then Carina said: ‘Let’s just cover one’.”
Round: “Maynard had been wanting to somehow pay homage to Low since Mimi passed. There’s always been a hum of that which would come and go. It went away for a while, then, in that moment when he was talking about it, he sent me the song and the lyrics so I just said, ‘You’re going to be in town and I have some time. Let’s do it.’ It’s been in the making for some years, and it seemed like the right moment.”
Last time you spoke to NME you told us that you believe hope can always seep through, no matter how dystopian things look. Do you still stand by that? The belief that eventually the good will always outweigh the bad?
Keenan: “Historically it has, especially in speaking about what’s happening in our corner of the world, which affects quite a few corners of the world. My grandfather warned me about it when he came out of World War II and showed me photos of what he’d witnessed at Dachau. So it eventually [resolves]. But it’s that ugliness. It’s that bad wolf that’s being fed by outside influences. But while it might seem super dark at the moment, it always ends up working out because humans, at their core, are a positive light.
“A part of some people has gone down that dark path, and whatever is obliterating that light for them… I don’t know if they can be helped. Maybe they can, but there are more people who are not living under a rock or in whatever hatred hell they live in.”
Puscifer has always been great at balancing playfulness and wit alongside heavy lyrics that push humanity to do a bit better. Why is that so important for you?
Round: “In Puscifer, even with the anger or whatever mood is being put across in the song, the underlying message is hope and joy. It’s also about questioning and going, ‘Let’s think here about how we can make things better’… but oftentimes it comes across as darkness. It’s like Alan Watts’ thing: you can’t have one without the other. If it’s all depression, darkness and gloom, the message is going to fall flat. Comedy, lightness and joy is going to help get the message across a lot faster and and a lot better.
“One of my first impressions of Puscifer when I heard the first record [‘“V” Is For Vagina’], before I was even involved, was just how brilliantly this odd, dark, sexual, subject matter was presented in such a beautiful and playful way. That’s a really unique and strong trait of this band. That’s due to how naturally the message is delivered by Maynard and thanks to the beautiful infrastructure of Mat’s dark and confusing music.”
Keenan: “You can boil it down to Shakespearean comedy and tragedy. There is a balance that has to be there, otherwise the intensity becomes too intense and the comedy becomes too comedic. You have to find that balance.”
Maynard, you’ve been juggling three bands for a while now. Now we’ve got the ‘Sessanta’ tour with A Perfect Circle and Puscifer playing with Primus. Do all of these things fuel creativity, or are you reaching the point where you’re ready to take a break?
Keenan: “You only live twice, so I have to – I don’t want to say, ‘Strike while the iron’s hot’ because that sounds like such a Wall Street trader douchebag statement – but when you have the inspiration in front of you, and if you have the energy, you should listen and respond to it. I don’t really see any reason why you shouldn’t.
“Things are still coming out when they’re ready. Not before they’re ready. So if you just accept that this is your life – whether it’s as a farmer, a restaurateur, a songwriter, a poet, a father, or a husband – then you just take it day by day. When you need the break, that’s when you take it.”
Have you thought about adding more to your plate and bringing the ‘Sessanta’ tour over to the UK?
Keenan: “I’ve thought about it, and I think we tried, but the problem with bringing something like that over to Europe and the UK is the expense. It’s pretty expensive to do and it is cost-prohibitive because all three bands are splitting everything three ways, including expenses. I want to bring it over, but also I feel like Puscifer, A Perfect Circle and Primus all need to come up with a new album, or a new set of songs, or just something to make it more appealing to do it again.
“We did it two years in a row only because there were towns in the US we didn’t make it to on the first run. Then we did approach Europe and the UK about doing it, but the offers would’ve involved us paying to come to show you the set. We still have to figure out how to get it to the point where it’s at least we’re not losing [money].”
Have you considered adding any new bands to the line-up? Maybe continuing with Puscifer and A Perfect Circle, but then having another group come in while Primus takes a break?
Keenan: “We could, but that would be an awkward conversation with Les [Claypool, Primus bassist and frontman]. Although, you know what, there’s nothing written in stone that says it has to be Primus on the next run. They’re pretty busy with their new drummer, so I don’t know if that would be a bad move or not. I’m sure it would be fine.
“But the problem comes down to, again, the conversation of listening. It’d be a question of who fills that role and who’s not going to be an absolute fucking nightmare to work with? Because you don’t know until you’re actually out there, and all of a sudden you’ve got this extra set of drama and egos that you had no idea about and didn’t expect.”
Round: “We lucked out with Primus”.
Keenan: “Yeah, it worked out because I’ve spent a lot of time with those guys on various tours and it fits like a glove. I don’t know what it’d be like to bring out someone else. Imagine if you didn’t know what you know about Oasis[‘s history], and then you brought them out and they could be literally fist-fighting on the stage while you’re trying to do your thing. That wouldn’t be great. It’d be fun and it would sell some tickets, but it wouldn’t serve the show.”
To go back to the new album, there are strong nods to acts like Killing Joke, Siouxsie And The Banshees, and Sisters Of Mercy. What was it about that aesthetic or that UK scene that resonated with you?
Round: “I was born and raised in England, so that kind of stuff was just a part of my DNA. But I do have to say, despite all of the goth [influences], when it comes to time for me to put my parts on a record, I will almost deliberately weave it in a different direction just because I just don’t want it to be only one thing. I will deliberately take it in a more [nuanced direction]. For example, Kate Bush is always my vibe, but so is FKA Twigs or something that is not goth at all.
“The three main synths that Mat is using on this record are all very rooted in that era and have that dark, brooding, gothic vibe. That being said, I think the only song that really has a heavily goth sound is ‘Pendulum’ – and that’s because Maynard was recording it in a hotel room and, because everyone was sleeping, he had to sing it low and quiet.”
Keenan: “Yeah, it was purely logistics. I intended to sing it an octave up when I got to a mic, but then I was like ‘This is where this is gonna live actually’.”
Not wanting to be too tied to the goth label is similar to how Robert Smith has always insisted that The Cure are not a goth band. How do you see the genre beyond generic tropes?
Keenan: “There are a lot of bands that I’ve tossed into the goth basket that aren’t really goth at all. It’s the same way when I start tossing around the word punk. Like, to me, Peaches is punk. It’s literally vagina-techno, but she is punk as fuck. That can apply to John Denver too and how he did what he was good at, didn’t compromise on how he felt about the world, and didn’t let any outside influence change his direction… So is that punk as well? I would say yes.
“Johnny Cash is punk too, but it’s a punk attitude, not a punk sound. So I think people get hung up on the sonics of it and lose track. Maybe that’s why people think the brooding nature of The Cure puts it into goth, when actually it’s just very beautiful, sad pop songs.”
Do you think big movements like the first explosion of the goth and punk scenes could happen today?
Keenan: “That’s a long conversation because, when I was growing up in bands, we were literally finding some warehouse on the outside of town that still had electricity plugged into it. There would be some alcoholic dude who, if you just slipped him 10 bucks, you could get in and staple some carpet that smelled like cat piss on the wall, and then that was your rehearsal space. Chances are it smelled like cat piss, cigarettes, mildew and mould… but you could be as loud as you could. You could explore music in this space where no one was going to clip your wings. Now, though, you’ve really got to try and find that same space, and it doesn’t exist anymore.
“I don’t think it has to go back to that, though. There are still ways that you can have that rough, punk, uncompromising mentality. Keep in mind, I’m 61, so I’m going to think of punk-rock in the way that I remember it… in ways that you will never experience now because all those areas and all those buildings have been gentrified. They’re beautiful $10,000 a month loft apartments, or they’re selling $6 coffees now. It’s not the same thing. Those spaces just don’t exist, and if you’re going to get loud, you’re gonna get sued.
“I think that [new scenes] have to manifest in a way that has more to do with now, and I don’t know what that is because I’m the old dude. But I do know it is happening, because it can’t not happen.”
Is that how you see it too, Carina?
Round: “Yeah. [Goth and punk] were genres that were so strong when I was growing up. You get to a certain age and you’re so obsessed with finding your individuality, but the ironic thing is that you’ve got to find your tribe and your group of people [to do that]. For me, music was my way of communicating that, and it was a very narrow lane of what kind of music you were allowed to like and what tribe you could be a part of. I don’t think we have that anymore with how readily available all kinds of music are.
“It’s OK to like everything and you don’t have to be a part of this little group anymore to be liked, so I think punk rock now is more about a sentiment than an actual sound. People on the massive end of it, like Tyler, The Creator and Kendrick Lamar, are more punk rock than anyone else out there. In terms of the genres and anything like that happening again, though? It’s going to be about being shocked by the brilliance of an artist or by an unexpected decision, rather than an actual whole genre moving things in a certain direction.”
Alex Honnold recently free-solo climbed Taipei 101, but the thing everyone seems to be obsessed with is his Tool-dominated playlist. Maynard, since it went viral, have you spoken to Honnold or planned to meet up?
Keenan: “I’m sure we’ll run into each other or something. I’ll be the one falling off the building and he’ll be the one climbing up it. But yeah, I definitely got some thunder off of him saying he was playing Tool songs. It’s actually depressing that what gets the attention is not the fact that this idiot is climbing that building, which is still impressive, it’s the playlist.
“My God, man. The balls to do what he did. When I get up from this chair, I’m going to have to take a minute before I take a couple steps, then I might have to do yoga before I hit the stairs. But for him, all his accomplishments get overshadowed by a rock band that can’t put out records in a very timely fashion. That’s pretty weird.”
‘Normal Isn’t’ is out now, and you can find tickets to Puscifer’s tour dates here.
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